Curse

RedStar · Oct 20, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

people who got gwamm are pissed off too since you dont need gwamm to get the 50/50 but you dont see them qqing all over the forum being whiny little girls stop being such a child and deal with it your like a kid throwing a temper tantrum in a store.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Players who achieve the Guild Wars title God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals for completing titles are able to wear that title in Guild Wars 2.

Maybe that's why.

And people aren't really bitching (you can go see pretty much every update threads since the last 2-3 months to see the real meaning of bitching).

And saying the Zaishen title is a PvP title is kind of lie. Sure you can get it exclusively by PvP but a lot of people got it by doing 16+ random clicks every months for almost a year.

I mean come on when you get "Champion of the Gods" you pretty much have nothing else to do, at least you are supposed to. Having it without having played RA/HA/GvG/Codex for more than 5% of the time you spent getting 50/50 is kind of...weird.
Saying you don't have the time or people are too elitist is a really bad excuse, you have 1 year+ to find a nice PvP guild and get a PvP title.

Shayne Hawke · Oct 20, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Just want to point out that raising the tier requirement for it only means that you will need to spend more money on it, and still not be forced to do any kind of PvP. Sounds pretty lose-lose to me.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 20, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

well i also would like to remind everyone that the current hom calc is only in beta format so they might actually change things, and i like the idea somone said a while ago of moving gamer to count as pvp making zashian pve title and than make it that you need more than 1 pvp title and each count as 1 point and allow kruz and luxon to count towards that but needing somthing like r10.

because most people have kruz or luxon regardless of if they pvp or not becasue lots still do that can take care of a big part of it for them and than they would still need 1 pvp title but gives more options on how to go about compleating the pvp area of the hom

RedStar · Oct 20, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Sorry due to DTSC and MQSC having lasted more than a year, Kurzick and Luxons titles should count as PvP titles for almost the same reason as Zaishen.
16k every 15 min => 156 hours, 15 minutes to go from 0 to max titles. A lot of week end events help this title, and 15 minutes is a little above average (could do it around 10 mins, and sometimes teams would bring cons). Of course with the SF and SB update, I haven't really done either, so I don't know how long it takes, but a week after those updates guildies and I managed to do it in 17 minutes.
And I'm sure more people got it the PvE way than for the Zaishen title (and please no "I don't care, I did it by playing JQ/FA/AB"...because unlike Zaishen, dozens of guilds were dedicated to farming those titles).

Notorious Bob · Oct 20, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pritst Of Death

well i also would like to remind everyone that the current hom calc is only in beta format so they might actually change things

OK, just for the 1000000000 time...

The website is beta, the HoM calc isnt, Anet aren't going to change the rewards or how they're earned.

jazilla · Oct 20, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Just want to point out that raising the tier requirement for it only means that you will need to spend more money on it, and still not be forced to do any kind of PvP. Sounds pretty lose-lose to me.

yeah you are right. i wish there was a way to treat the zaishen keys like golden eggs where you only get the points if they "drop" for you

i have a feeling there are a lot of players at the ANET office that don't PvP but wanted 50/50 in their HoM.

But seriously.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 20, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious Bob

OK, just for the 1000000000 time...

The website is beta, the HoM calc isnt, Anet aren't going to change the rewards or how they're earned.

oh really i was unawair of that that kinda changes everything about my argument

Shriketalon · Oct 21, 2010, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

No, feeling like the pvp title should be handed to you is. Also, Z-title isn't pvp, and should never have counted as pvp. It isn't about how "hardcore" it is.

Question: why does it matter in the slightest?

People you have never met, have never interacted with, and may never see might gain a small blurb of text that you will never read in an upcoming game via a different means than you prefer. If it is changed, a bunch of newbs will flood RA, a bunch more will say "screw it" and settle for the 45/50 title because they don't want to deal with PvP's massive headaches, and a bunch of PvPers will pat themselves on the back, yet get absolutely nothing out of it.

That's what it boils down to, and quite frankly, what in Dwayna's name is the big deal? The only harm it might be doing is to a few egos (alas, the PvP, it's honor is tainted! Tainted, I say!), and the only benefit a change would produce is a vindictive feeling of affirmation.

So why should anyone bother changing it?

*lemming* · Oct 21, 2010, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Question: why does it matter in the slightest?

People you have never met, have never interacted with, and may never see might gain a small blurb of text that you will never read in an upcoming game via a different means than you prefer. If it is changed, a bunch of newbs will flood RA, a bunch more will say "screw it" and settle for the 45/50 title because they don't want to deal with PvP's massive headaches, and a bunch of PvPers will pat themselves on the back, yet get absolutely nothing out of it.

That's what it boils down to, and quite frankly, what in Dwayna's name is the big deal? The only harm it might be doing is to a few egos (alas, the PvP, it's honor is tainted! Tainted, I say!), and the only benefit a change would produce is a vindictive feeling of affirmation.

So why should anyone bother changing it?

Well, by that logic, why not let everyone wear every PvE title for free?

Shriketalon · Oct 21, 2010, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Well, by that logic, why not let everyone wear every PvE title for free?

Because that would be unfashionable.

Or, more specifically, it isn't the same point. The Zaishen title isn't getting something for free, it just has a means of acquisition people don't like. It is quite possible to gain the title through PvP prowess, as this thread has demonstrated, but there's also the minor factor of money. The only problem, therefore, is a value judgment; with so many titles and statues dependent upon wealth, is one more a significant issue?

The only way to say that it is true is if only true PvP should be part of the 3 point requirement. The problem, of course, is that this isn't the case; Gamer is a pvp title, but isn't displayed. Kurzick and Luxon titles can come from PvP, and they have entire formats dedicated to their conflict, but it can also be gained through PvE prowess.

Limiting the requirement to "only titles that can be exclusively gained through PvP" directly goes against the very purpose, because it means some PvPers will get screwed. If you are a master of Alliance Battles, such that you have gained both allegiance tracks via your winnings, you are a Guild Wars PvPer. But that's not enough for the 3 points reserved for Guild Wars PvPers, apparently. If you are the most awesome snowball thrower this side of the Shiverpeaks, you have some player-on-player skillz, but that isn't properly expressed.

Further limitations to the 3 points won't actually make it a "true PvPer" title, because it is already ignoring several legitimate formats. The only way, for example, that a JQ/FA/AB player can attest to his prowess as a PvPer, which he has earned through years of player versus player combat, is via the balthazar-faction-bought keys he earns in those formats. This suggestion would screw him over further just because a few of those "unworthy" types might buy their way to treasure heaven. But at the same time, if we gave him Luxon or Kurzick, we're right back at PvE methods gaining the PvP title.

Honestly, the best suggestion in this thread was to declare this the Battle Isles title requirement. Avoid the entire controversy, enrich the theme.

*lemming* · Oct 21, 2010, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Or, more specifically, it isn't the same point. The Zaishen title isn't getting something for free, it just has a means of acquisition people don't like. It is quite possible to gain the title through PvP prowess, as this thread has demonstrated, but there's also the minor factor of money. The only problem, therefore, is a value judgment; with so many titles and statues dependent upon wealth, is one more a significant issue?

Fair enough, I misspoke.

Now, what if you could unlock all PvE titles by, say, getting rank 12? It's no longer free, but I'm certain that it'd be a means of acquisition that most PvEers would like, even though it's more difficult by far. Does that make it justifiable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The only way to say that it is true is if only true PvP should be part of the 3 point requirement. The problem, of course, is that this isn't the case; Gamer is a pvp title, but isn't displayed. Kurzick and Luxon titles can come from PvP, and they have entire formats dedicated to their conflict, but it can also be gained through PvE prowess.

Limiting the requirement to "only titles that can be exclusively gained through PvP" directly goes against the very purpose, because it means some PvPers will get screwed. If you are a master of Alliance Battles, such that you have gained both allegiance tracks via your winnings, you are a Guild Wars PvPer. But that's not enough for the 3 points reserved for Guild Wars PvPers, apparently. If you are the most awesome snowball thrower this side of the Shiverpeaks, you have some player-on-player skillz, but that isn't properly expressed.

Further limitations to the 3 points won't actually make it a "true PvPer" title, because it is already ignoring several legitimate formats. The only way, for example, that a JQ/FA/AB player can attest to his prowess as a PvPer, which he has earned through years of player versus player combat, is via the balthazar-faction-bought keys he earns in those formats. This suggestion would screw him over further just because a few of those "unworthy" types might buy their way to treasure heaven. But at the same time, if we gave him Luxon or Kurzick, we're right back at PvE methods gaining the PvP title.

The two segments of the player base have a fundamental difference in opinion of what constitutes "PvP."

PvEers consider anything that involves interaction with another nonallied player to be PvP. PvPers consider AB, JQ, and FA PvE formats since

a. the population of those formats is primarily comprised of PvEers
b. combat against other players is minimal in importance, since the objectives revolve around NPCs

Those seem like legitimate, or at least debatable, reasons for separating them from RA/TA/CA/HA/GvG as PvP titles.

drkn · Oct 21, 2010, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Now, what if you could unlock all PvE titles by, say, getting rank 12? It's no longer free, but I'm certain that it'd be a means of acquisition that most PvEers would like, even though it's more difficult by far. Does that make it justifiable?

As in, Zaishen rank 12?
If you sell the keys and buy consumables for titles and tomes for elites, runs through the content and pay for other services, the only thing you really have to do in PvE is mapping. With texmod and an area vanquished by someone you paid to do it, it's just a walk in the park, literally - i'd compare it with clicking the Zaishen Chest, especially if you bring running skills. And after selling keys worth zrank 12 you will still have assloads of money after getting every PvE title AND statue via paid leeching, afking or other ways that require nothing from you but money.
Sounds familiar?

AB, JQ and FA are less PvP-oriented than other formats primairily because of the vital roles of NPCs there (note the plural). If there were no NPCs in FA (and it was aptly modified then, of course - i leave that to your imagination, as it's not the point), it would be one of the best and most PvP-filled formats; a regular siege. It wouldn't matter that both sides are formed on faction basis and that you get respective faction points for winning.
On the other hand, both segments of the player base agree that festival PvP arenas, as Costume Brawl, Snowball Arena and Dragon Arena, are PvP in its full. Their title, Gamer, is not considered PvP by ANet, yet they still provide a lot of Balthazar Faction to buy the keys with - most of my 200 keys were farmed via festival arenas. Since Zaishen title meets satisfaction to both 'standard' PvP formats players as well as festival PvPers, it's the win/win middle ground, that taints 'trve uber kvlt PvPers' honor because it can be bought; PvE titles can be bought as well, yet it never produced so much fuss.

*lemming* · Oct 21, 2010, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

As in, Zaishen rank 12?

No, I meant Hero. The point was to offer a hypothetical situation where a completely unrelated method for obtaining a title existed.

vader · Oct 21, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

I'll admit that I was happy when I saw my Zaishen title filled my PvP requirement but moving the title to PvE is ridiculous. How exactly can you earn Zaishen keys in PvE?

EDIT: I forgot you can get Z-keys with Zaishen coins from the daily quests but are people actually buying them with coins? I would guess that currently 90% of Z-keys are coming from PvP.

Yawgmoth · Oct 21, 2010, 02:53 PM // 14:53

A key thing everyone should keep in mind:

Zaishen title is just a consumable buyable title just like Sweet Tooth or Party Animal (those are definately PvE titles, aren't they?), and Rank 3 Zaishen is even CHEAPER to buy than either of those!

As such it can be (and very often is) obtained without even touching any form of PvP at all! Obtainable without any PvP at all = not a PvP title at all. Simple.

It doesn't matter where the actual ZKeys come from (somebody else doing PvP and selling his keys or a PvE'r exchanging his Z-Coins from daily quests), what matters is that a PvE-only player can just keep farming ectos and earn (buy) himself a bunch of consumable titles, one of which is the Zaishen title.

There isn't even any 1 good reason to keep it count as a PvP title except for a slight (~10%) increase of Z-Keys secodary market value, so I fully support this change.

Pritst Of Death · Oct 21, 2010, 03:13 PM // 15:13

no one has brought this point up so i'm gonna say it there is a reason guru and anet do not allow anyone 2 sell hero or champ point because it is lessening the pvp title but they do allow you 2 sell your zkeys for a pvp title, at this point if there keeping zashian a pvp title than anet should also just be letting people seel hero and champ points by leaching teams

Tolmos · Oct 21, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

If they do change this (note that I do NOT have the Zaishen r3 title nor have I even started it), I really think they should grandfather in the people who already have it. Honestly, I despise when a game tells people "Yea, work really hard for this cause it will accomplish this goal for it!" and then a few months later "eh, changed our minds. Screw you.".

I know the general argument is that MOST people did not work for it. I don't care, because even if just 3 people worked their a**es off for it, that is enough to make it worth grandfathering them in. Those 3 people don't deserve that hardcore of a punishnment

Shriketalon · Oct 21, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

a. the population of those formats is primarily comprised of PvEers
b. combat against other players is minimal in importance, since the objectives revolve around NPCs

Those seem like legitimate, or at least debatable, reasons for separating them from RA/TA/CA/HA/GvG as PvP titles.

Would I be a bad person if I asked how the Guild Lord and his entourage factored into "objectives that revolve around NPCs"?

Regardless, this is sounding like a No True Scotsman discussion. FA involves one team of players against another team of players, but it isn't "true PvP" because it has NPC influence. Gamer isn't a proper PvP title because it's composed of riffraff and unworthy types. Only the "true PvP" deserves the coveted 3 points.

Bleh. And some maintain that PvPers aren't elitist.

There are many ways for players to fight other players. Sometimes that means arena matches. Sometimes that means resource wars. Sometimes that means strategic operations. Sometimes that means three way brawls. Sometimes it means just throwing snow around.

And at present, there's no practical way to ensure that all PvP modes translate into the 3 point statue requirement. So we can either be needlessly elitist, and say only a few PvP modes are "true PvP", or we can include ways for each of the modes to contribute towards titles that count.

The latter may involve a few people slipping through the cracks, but quite frankly, it isn't a serious issue worth worrying about.

*lemming* · Oct 21, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Would I be a bad person if I asked how the Guild Lord and his entourage factored into "objectives that revolve around NPCs"?

No, you wouldn't, but VoD doesn't exist anymore. At least theoretically, and certainly in this metagame, the objective (to kill the enemy guild lord) requires primarily dealing with the enemy team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Regardless, this is sounding like a No True Scotsman discussion. FA involves one team of players against another team of players, but it isn't "true PvP" because it has NPC influence. Gamer isn't a proper PvP title because it's composed of riffraff and unworthy types. Only the "true PvP" deserves the coveted 3 points.

Bleh. And some maintain that PvPers aren't elitist.

Even if we can disagree on what constitutes PvP, I'm sure you'll understand my point. After all, I imagine that you wouldn't be happy if PvE monuments and titles could be obtained in less time through exclusively PvPing.

Also, note that I don't disagree that Gamer should qualify.

As an aside: what exactly do you believe "elitist" to mean?

Essence Snow · Oct 21, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Even if we can disagree on what constitutes PvP, I'm sure you'll understand my point. After all, I imagine that you wouldn't be happy if PvE monuments and titles could be obtained in less time through exclusively PvPing.

Some of the PvE titles may be acheived in less time via PvP alone. Just buy them! Don't want to spend the time to go cap that pet?...Buy It! Don't want to spend the time farming all those sweet/drunk/party points?...But 'em! Don't wan't to spend all the time farming all those unidents for wisdom?.....Buy them! Don't want to spend all that time capping elites?...Buy the title!

This is not a one way street. Both PvP and PvE have purchasable titles. Heck I just started buying/leeching fame. I really doubt many players would care if anyone bought any/all of the PvE titles. There is also a matter of how ppl earn the "flow" to buy titles on either side of the fence, but that is a whole other ball game.